• PugJesus@piefed.socialM
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    4 days ago

    It’s not to conceal the fact that they’re Muslim. It was simply the standard for a significant period of European history to Latinize names, as Latin was the common tongue of academia. Germans, Norse, and Slavs all suffered this same Latinization.

    For that matter, translating names into the local language is far from abnormal in world history - the use of the local name is extremely recent in nearly all languages. Even personal names of people who were known, personally, was not abnormal - famously, T.E. Lawrence was known by his Arab allies as “Auruns”. In English, the Anglicization of Marcus Antonius as Mark Antony by Shakespeare still has currency some 400 years later, even as other Anglicizations of Roman figures have largely fallen out of favor.

    This is making mountains out of molehills. It’s one thing to want the Arabic forms to replace the old Latinization - that’s valid. It’s another thing entirely to accuse it of being done to steal credit from Muslims.

  • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
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    4 days ago

    “Stop latinizing”

    We literally did centuries ago. No Arabic name is ever latinized because - aa it turns out - if you stop using Latin, you don’t need Latinization.

    For existing names, I don’t see a problem with using the historic remnant. It was useful at the time because of Latin grammar and the Latin names are much more well established.

    It happened with every name by the way. See Confucius, Nostradamus or Copernicus.

    What localized name should you call Copernicus by the way?

    The Latin Nicolaus Copernicus?
    The Polish Mikołaj Kopernik?
    The Middle Low German Niklas Koppernigk?
    The Modern German Nikolaus Kopernikus?

    Turns out being a scientist in a multilingual region leads to a bunch of different names.

    • Rat_in_a_hat@lemmy.ca
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      4 days ago

      No, I disagree - same with countries names. Would be good to not anglicize or Latinize anything anymore. It’s ok if people expand their boundaries and pronunciation skills.

      Call the person or thing by what they go/went by.

      We recently did it with “Türkiye”.

      • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
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        4 days ago

        We did not do it with “Türkiye”. Also note that ü is a different letter from u, not just a u with decoration.

        The Turkish government requested international organizations to refer to Turkey that way:

        In May 2022, the Turkish government requested the United Nations and other international organizations to use Türkiye officially in English.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey

        Everyone else continues to call it Turkey, especially newspapers. It’s why the Wikipedia article continues to be called “Turkey”. Neither me nor you are a country or international organization.

        Same with Ivory Coast and its official name “Côte d’Ivoire”.

    • Lumidaub@feddit.org
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      4 days ago

      Dude. “We’ve always done it like that” is your argument? Can you not see how it would be beneficial to try and emphasise that a lot of contributions to science came from non-European scholars?

      • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
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        4 days ago

        Nah, I’m arguing only to keep old and established names only. It makes in my opinion little sense to start referring to the one’s I mentioned as Kong Qiu, de Nostredame, or Koppernigk.

        Feel free to use whatever name you like. Whether you choose to use the romanized or established latinized name is none of anyone’s business.

    • Yliaster@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      You’re saying this as if the process is latin specific. Just like how we can see Sheikh Zubayr written in the post in English, you could do the same in other languages, too.

      It’s deliberate whitewashing of scientists that’s disgusting and your defending it here that’s appalling.

      • yetAnotherUser@discuss.tchncs.de
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        4 days ago

        I never claimed it was specific to Latin? You can see it with the example of Copernicus that it was Latinized, Polonized (?) and Modern-Standard-Germanized.

        Franz Liszt is called Liszt Ferenc in Hungarian. That’s because Ferenc is the Hungarian variant of Franz and Hungarian names are spelled backwards for some reason.

        I could provide so many more options where people were given several names because they did not live in a monolingual region.

        In Czech, women’s last names take on the -ová suffix. Even if they aren’t Czech, didn’t speak Czech or never set a foot into Czechia. For example: Hillary Clintonová

        I frankly don’t care enough about what languages do to names. If the intent is to wipe out other cultures then it’s obviously bad. Like colonizing Brits did with native landmarks (e.g. Uluru -> Ayer’s Rock). If the intent is to adjust the name to a cultures grammar, pronunciation or similar, I couldn’t care less.

  • themoken@startrek.website
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    4 days ago

    Eh, as long as it’s just the proper noun, I don’t really care that much. Languages can have their own versions of nouns based on the cultural context at the time. Is calling Deutschland Germany a problem? Zhongguo China? Nah.

    You wanna call Shakespeare something different, go for it, it just means he was important enough to have a moniker in another language.

    • Yliaster@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      It’s a bad analogy because calling Deutschland Germany doesn’t make you think Germany is an English concept, whereas rebranding all scientists in a whitewashed manner projects an image of all scientific breakthroughs being owed to the west.

    • Akasazh@lemmy.world
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      4 days ago

      From the philosophical perspective the Arabic philosophers where instrumental for their commentaries on Aristotle. Early edieval philosophy in Europe was mainly rehashing Plato’s philosophy within the framework of catholicism.

      Aristotle was all but forgotten in western philosophy until the Arabic translations and commentaries started to get translated into Latin again.

      There was this window in the fourteenth century where there was this great interchange between Arabic and Christian philosophy. This was when these Arabic scholars got their Latin names, as they were seen as part of the same tradition. A lot of Arabic tems where incorporated in western like algebra and algorithm. (Maybe op wants is to revert those words too?)

      Unfortunately in the late Middle Ages this exchange was severed as, like Galileo and Bruno the free thinking philosophers crashed with hard line religious figures. In the Islamic region the philosophical tradition was curtailed whilst in Europe it managed to survive and propagate the names of these important thinkers.

      My point is that the latinization is not out of spite, but out of respect. It was never about polarization between culture but rather in celebration of the exchange of ideas. Furthermore in modern philosophy books since at least the eighties the Arabic names are mentioned.

    • PugJesus@piefed.socialM
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      4 days ago

      Avicenna was a Persian polymath whose writings on a variety of topics were extremely learned and influenced academia in both the Muslim world and Christian Europe for hundreds of years.

      Averroes was a Spanish Muslim philosopher and translator who transmitted a significant portion of the corpus of Classical literature to Christian Europe by his (Arabic) translations and commentaries on them, as Christian Europe had largely lost the texts.

      Jabir (“Geber”) ibn Hayyan was a chemist, apparently.

      • MalikMuaddibSoong@startrek.website
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        4 days ago

        Are you saying these folks aren’t Arabs?

        But why would they have Arab names instead of names from their own language?

        So peculiar.

        Edit: on further thought maybe we’re ready for a lemmy ask history community. This could have been a great discussion if it started with a question about Latin naming instead of an assumption of cultureal erasure.

  • thisisbutaname@discuss.tchncs.de
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    4 days ago

    In addition to that, there’s a tendency in mathematics to name a formula or theorem after the mathematician that discovered them if they are of western origin, meanwhile discoveries by arab/muslim/non-western academics are often referred to by a name that conceals the identity of the person behind them.

    It may be a small thing, but it definitely skews the perception around scientific progress in a eurocentric direction, willingly or not lending support to ideas of superiority of some ethnicities over others.

  • Marternus@discuss.tchncs.de
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    4 days ago

    I remember when I first listened to a newscaster in aljazeera saying: Gerhard Schröder Sometimes it makes it worse trying…

  • Caveman@lemmy.world
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    4 days ago

    This is not surprising, pretty much everyone did this for names back in the day. Kings, popes, cities and countries all have different names based on the language.

  • Gladaed@feddit.org
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    4 days ago

    You should avoid using letters that do not exist or have different pronunciation. Or accept that people pronounce names offensively wrong. Noone cares enough to know every language and place of origin before reading about a thing.

    And most people cannot even read the alphabet (IPA). Foreign scripts even less so.

    • rumschlumpel@feddit.org
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      4 days ago

      Sounds like this guy doesn’t care about proper pronounciation, though. And Arabic isn’t really a language that’s completely unrecognizable when you pronounce the alphabetized names with most european accents (not including English), in contrast to Chinese.

      • Dr. Bob@lemmy.ca
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        4 days ago

        Hearing people pronounce Qatar should drive this home. English lacks the glottal “k” sound from Arabic so everything is on the table.

        • rumschlumpel@feddit.org
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          4 days ago

          Meh, close enough. I’d be surprised if Europeans pronounce even one letter right when reading “Zhōngguó” (China).