We do not need to spend more on defense, cos there is no threat. I mean Russia is losing against Ukraine, how tf are they supposed to be a threat for the rest of europe? And neither China nor India are threating Europe.
The only answer I MIGHT accept is defense against the USA.
Well yes, exactly. A fascist USA is a good example for a threat if they don’t get their shit together over there.
And Russia is absolutely a threat. We have been in a cold war with them for quite some time without even knowing it. Russia is a large part of why right-wing extremists parties are so popular in Europe. They are actively destroying democracy in Europe. That is an existential threat, at least to our values as society and democracy.
Yeah Russia under Putin has been interfering a lot, starting with climate change denial - but that is only possible because social media lets them. Without meaningful moderation to stem “agitprop” and hate speech and propaganda, there is no defense. Meanwhile spending more on the military industrial complex to build up this massive lobbying force that undermines democracy is the exact wrong reaction. We need to either demand the social media moderate and properly ban botnets and state agents, or ban them and create a European (moderated) alternative. You can’t have for profit news or social media and expect democracy to work.
Obviously being Anti Russia doesn’t change the historical fact that the CIA/NED funded and facilitated the protests and regime change in Ukraine and empowered Ukrainian Nazis to turn Ukraine Anti-Russia. And that Russia has legitimate security concerns about a Nato aligned, Nazi infested Ukraine. Which again, a military proxy adversary to Russia wasn’t what we needed to fight Russia’s interference. Putin/Russia does want to undermine and weaken Europe, and in that way they also profit from the destabilization the Ukraine war has caused. It’s a similar dynamic to Bin Laden turning the US warmongering into overdrive and therefor ruining the US.
I agree on Europe needing its own moderated alternative to US social media.
But let’s not repeat Russian propaganda on how Ukraine is “Nazi infested”, it’s quite the opposite, the Russian regime is the most fascist government of our age. Russia has “legitimate” security concerns about Ukrainians choosing democracy and Europe over Russian fascism. How people still fall for the reversal of the victim/perpetrator relationship in this conflict astounds me to this day.
This isn’t Russian propaganda. These are all facts you can read up on from western sources. See this for the sources you can follow up yourself.
Just because you call something Russian propaganda or because Russia said it doesn’t invalidate an argument or fact. This is called a “genetic fallacy”. The US did have a leading role in the regime change in Ukraine and who got into power. The US has done regime change and coups a lot of time in the last 70 years, and they said they are working towards regime change in Ukraine before it happened, they funded the movement and applied pressure.
If you deny the historical facts then you are playing right into the hands of the warmongers like OP. All they have to keep saying is that Russia is an evil Nazi regime and a clear and present danger and that any opposition to more militarism in Europe is traitorous.
If Russia was indeed such a grave danger, they would be right too. Turn Europe’s economy into a war economy, start conscription, start a Manhattan project to intercept nuclear warheads and build a billion killer drones to conquer Russia. So your position isn’t even consistent. Because it’s double think. Russia is at the same time weak and has a smaller economy than Italy, has human wave tactics that cannot work, is on the brink of collapse for years now, and at the same time is incredibly dangerous genocidal nazi state that must be stopped at all cost.
The cost being the truth and our social democratic policies.
All they have to keep saying is that Russia is an evil Nazi regime
Are you saying they are not?
Turn Europe’s economy into a war economy, start conscription, start a Manhattan project to intercept nuclear warheads and build a billion killer drones to conquer Russia.
Absolutely no one in Europe wants to conquer Russia. We just want to be left the fuck alone from Russian Nazis interfering in our democracy and to leave our neighbours alone.
And the only one twisting historical facts are you, saying the Maidan revolution was a western coup instead of Ukrainians choosing to oust a Russian puppet. This wasn’t some fringe group taking power, it was supported by the majority of Ukrainians.
2019, 5 years later. But the facts about the funding and NED operations remain the facts. The organizer of the Maidan protests did receive funding and training from the CIA/NED. This does not erase what happened, or how it happened.
Further, the near 50/50 split is very much divided between east and west Ukraine, with the east being more Russian language speaking and aligned. There was serious resistance to this “realignment”. And even western media reported about the nazi problem and violence coming from far right mobs.
Did Russia meddle, contribute to the civil war and illegally invade? Yeah. But this one sided narrative about the history, and the characterization of Russia as some comically evil nazi regime is just nonsense. The CIA/NED openly bragged about their operation that ended with this war.
Again, I’m not pro Russia. But I do understand they have legitimate security concerns. And expanding NATO to Ukraine was warmongering. Because you do not need to be pro Russia to say “If you do X, this actor will react with Y which is very bad. So do not do X”.
We do not need to spend more on defense, cos there is no threat. I mean Russia is losing against Ukraine, how tf are they supposed to be a threat for the rest of europe? And neither China nor India are threating Europe. The only answer I MIGHT accept is defense against the USA.
Well yes, exactly. A fascist USA is a good example for a threat if they don’t get their shit together over there.
And Russia is absolutely a threat. We have been in a cold war with them for quite some time without even knowing it. Russia is a large part of why right-wing extremists parties are so popular in Europe. They are actively destroying democracy in Europe. That is an existential threat, at least to our values as society and democracy.
Yeah Russia under Putin has been interfering a lot, starting with climate change denial - but that is only possible because social media lets them. Without meaningful moderation to stem “agitprop” and hate speech and propaganda, there is no defense. Meanwhile spending more on the military industrial complex to build up this massive lobbying force that undermines democracy is the exact wrong reaction. We need to either demand the social media moderate and properly ban botnets and state agents, or ban them and create a European (moderated) alternative. You can’t have for profit news or social media and expect democracy to work.
Obviously being Anti Russia doesn’t change the historical fact that the CIA/NED funded and facilitated the protests and regime change in Ukraine and empowered Ukrainian Nazis to turn Ukraine Anti-Russia. And that Russia has legitimate security concerns about a Nato aligned, Nazi infested Ukraine. Which again, a military proxy adversary to Russia wasn’t what we needed to fight Russia’s interference. Putin/Russia does want to undermine and weaken Europe, and in that way they also profit from the destabilization the Ukraine war has caused. It’s a similar dynamic to Bin Laden turning the US warmongering into overdrive and therefor ruining the US.
I agree on Europe needing its own moderated alternative to US social media.
But let’s not repeat Russian propaganda on how Ukraine is “Nazi infested”, it’s quite the opposite, the Russian regime is the most fascist government of our age. Russia has “legitimate” security concerns about Ukrainians choosing democracy and Europe over Russian fascism. How people still fall for the reversal of the victim/perpetrator relationship in this conflict astounds me to this day.
This isn’t Russian propaganda. These are all facts you can read up on from western sources. See this for the sources you can follow up yourself.
Just because you call something Russian propaganda or because Russia said it doesn’t invalidate an argument or fact. This is called a “genetic fallacy”. The US did have a leading role in the regime change in Ukraine and who got into power. The US has done regime change and coups a lot of time in the last 70 years, and they said they are working towards regime change in Ukraine before it happened, they funded the movement and applied pressure.
If you deny the historical facts then you are playing right into the hands of the warmongers like OP. All they have to keep saying is that Russia is an evil Nazi regime and a clear and present danger and that any opposition to more militarism in Europe is traitorous.
If Russia was indeed such a grave danger, they would be right too. Turn Europe’s economy into a war economy, start conscription, start a Manhattan project to intercept nuclear warheads and build a billion killer drones to conquer Russia. So your position isn’t even consistent. Because it’s double think. Russia is at the same time weak and has a smaller economy than Italy, has human wave tactics that cannot work, is on the brink of collapse for years now, and at the same time is incredibly dangerous genocidal nazi state that must be stopped at all cost.
The cost being the truth and our social democratic policies.
Are you saying they are not?
Absolutely no one in Europe wants to conquer Russia. We just want to be left the fuck alone from Russian Nazis interfering in our democracy and to leave our neighbours alone.
And the only one twisting historical facts are you, saying the Maidan revolution was a western coup instead of Ukrainians choosing to oust a Russian puppet. This wasn’t some fringe group taking power, it was supported by the majority of Ukrainians.
Poll: More Ukrainians disapprove of EuroMaidan protests than approve of it (Kyiv Post, 2014)
“More than half of the respondents (52%) were for the Euromaidan protests, with only 6% of supporters of then-authorities. A quarter (25%) supported neither authorities nor the opposition and were against any protests in the country.”
2019, 5 years later. But the facts about the funding and NED operations remain the facts. The organizer of the Maidan protests did receive funding and training from the CIA/NED. This does not erase what happened, or how it happened.
Further, the near 50/50 split is very much divided between east and west Ukraine, with the east being more Russian language speaking and aligned. There was serious resistance to this “realignment”. And even western media reported about the nazi problem and violence coming from far right mobs.
Did Russia meddle, contribute to the civil war and illegally invade? Yeah. But this one sided narrative about the history, and the characterization of Russia as some comically evil nazi regime is just nonsense. The CIA/NED openly bragged about their operation that ended with this war.
Again, I’m not pro Russia. But I do understand they have legitimate security concerns. And expanding NATO to Ukraine was warmongering. Because you do not need to be pro Russia to say “If you do X, this actor will react with Y which is very bad. So do not do X”.