On the surface yes but until corporations and business are brought to heel, they will simply use up the space you made with your sacrifice. The primary entities responsible for climate change is the private sector, people seeking power and profit without regard to cost. They shift the blame to consumers who choose only from what options business already decided to provide, as if we’re at fault. We are not. Corporations and selfish, narcissistic CEOs and shareholders are the responsible parties. They’ve been told, shown the science, had it explained it to them personally by the foremost experts, watched the changes unfold, and they keep choosing to kill the planet, and if anyone tries to force them to stop, those systems are relentlessly attacked, like environmental agencies and government oversight, taxation etc.
Us as individuals are not responsible for the choices in business and politics that continue to disregard the warnings, to chase their insatiable psychological need for more power. This is all on them. Every last bit of it and when it finally reaches a point that they can’t ignore the consequences, they will force us to sacrifice so they don’t have to, even if that means we stop having children or start dying at younger and younger ages.
While it is on them, that does not mean is individually are off the hook. I’m all for holding the accountable, but at the end of the day we buy their products.
Yes I know it was a propaganda campaign, yes I know they do more. That doesn’t mean we should keep using fossil fuels because they do worse. In fact it should drive us to remove fossil fuels from out lives even more, denying them our money.
Gas furnace? Switch to a heat pump. Gas water heater? Electric or heat pump. If you can, solar on the roof. Reduce your driving and take the bus or ride a bike. Think of what would happen if even 20% of people removed their gas furnaces within the next 3 years.
Disagree. The government should not allow products to be sold that are detrimental to our common welfare. The corruption of politics by private companies has made that impossible. Fuck them. I’m not sacrificing to clean up their mess while they take in profits and make every effort to thwart that cleanup. They propagandize us against making sacrifices to continue coercing us to buy their shit.
Our entire culture is propaganda and coercion to serve shareholder interests. They already won on that front and I’m not spending my life struggling to find joy in the hellscape they made by making even more sacrifices while those with the most power make absolutely none. Enough is enough. They need to stop because nothing I or you can do can stop them. They created this mess, they can make all the sacrifices necessary to clean it up and if they don’t then maybe we deserve extinction.
I don’t think we’re agreeing or disagreeing, because I agree with everything you said.
However - once you realize all of that, I believe you are also culpable of your own personal contributions.
It is not an “Us or them”, it is both. I admit it’s 90% them, but there is some fraction that is ours as well, and for my house, I am very happy that (except for the waterheater), completely carbon neutral.
I won’t hold it against anyone for having a gas car when they were under the spell, but I definitely hold it against them if their next purchase is another gas guzzler, or gas stove, or gas furnace, because they are happily giving money to the oil companies.
It is not both. It’s them, full stop. Punishing the working class for not making more sacrifices on top of those their use of power has already forced on us is you further serving their interests. Stop being a class traitor and abusive toward your fellow victims. We are not the problem and not solution. They are.
If you think I’m a “class traitor” for suggesting instead of buying a gas water buying an electric then there is nothing more I can say to you. Holy fuck.
The working class has made more than their share of sacrifices to fix a problem we didn’t create. You just keep asking for more sacrifices from us, when is it enough? How much more do you want us to sacrifice to protect the rich from sacrificing anything at all to fix their fucking mess? Everything? Is there a limit? Stop asking, telling or ‘sharing’ ways to coerce the poorest and least powerful of us to fix a problem we didn’t create and have zero control over. If we all went neutral, the wealthy would still just use all that space to pollute more. There is no solution without the wealthy making the sacrifices necessary, you’re just asking us to fucking suffer more to appease your need to do something about a problem outside your control.
Nope, not buying it. You already smashed the “class traitor” button, for me checks notes asking people to not give money to rich oil companies when they can by doing things like buying electric appliances. Any and all emotion or thoughts above that are what you assumed about me, this conversation is over.
Ironically if you hadn’t jumped down my throat I think we could have had a good conversation. Instead of creating allies, this just sewed more division. I’d analyze who really caused more class divide here.
On the surface yes but until corporations and business are brought to heel, they will simply use up the space you made with your sacrifice. The primary entities responsible for climate change is the private sector, people seeking power and profit without regard to cost. They shift the blame to consumers who choose only from what options business already decided to provide, as if we’re at fault. We are not. Corporations and selfish, narcissistic CEOs and shareholders are the responsible parties. They’ve been told, shown the science, had it explained it to them personally by the foremost experts, watched the changes unfold, and they keep choosing to kill the planet, and if anyone tries to force them to stop, those systems are relentlessly attacked, like environmental agencies and government oversight, taxation etc.
Us as individuals are not responsible for the choices in business and politics that continue to disregard the warnings, to chase their insatiable psychological need for more power. This is all on them. Every last bit of it and when it finally reaches a point that they can’t ignore the consequences, they will force us to sacrifice so they don’t have to, even if that means we stop having children or start dying at younger and younger ages.
While it is on them, that does not mean is individually are off the hook. I’m all for holding the accountable, but at the end of the day we buy their products.
Yes I know it was a propaganda campaign, yes I know they do more. That doesn’t mean we should keep using fossil fuels because they do worse. In fact it should drive us to remove fossil fuels from out lives even more, denying them our money.
Gas furnace? Switch to a heat pump. Gas water heater? Electric or heat pump. If you can, solar on the roof. Reduce your driving and take the bus or ride a bike. Think of what would happen if even 20% of people removed their gas furnaces within the next 3 years.
So no, you aren’t off the hook for your usage.
Disagree. The government should not allow products to be sold that are detrimental to our common welfare. The corruption of politics by private companies has made that impossible. Fuck them. I’m not sacrificing to clean up their mess while they take in profits and make every effort to thwart that cleanup. They propagandize us against making sacrifices to continue coercing us to buy their shit.
Our entire culture is propaganda and coercion to serve shareholder interests. They already won on that front and I’m not spending my life struggling to find joy in the hellscape they made by making even more sacrifices while those with the most power make absolutely none. Enough is enough. They need to stop because nothing I or you can do can stop them. They created this mess, they can make all the sacrifices necessary to clean it up and if they don’t then maybe we deserve extinction.
I don’t think we’re agreeing or disagreeing, because I agree with everything you said.
However - once you realize all of that, I believe you are also culpable of your own personal contributions.
It is not an “Us or them”, it is both. I admit it’s 90% them, but there is some fraction that is ours as well, and for my house, I am very happy that (except for the waterheater), completely carbon neutral.
I won’t hold it against anyone for having a gas car when they were under the spell, but I definitely hold it against them if their next purchase is another gas guzzler, or gas stove, or gas furnace, because they are happily giving money to the oil companies.
It is not both. It’s them, full stop. Punishing the working class for not making more sacrifices on top of those their use of power has already forced on us is you further serving their interests. Stop being a class traitor and abusive toward your fellow victims. We are not the problem and not solution. They are.
If you think I’m a “class traitor” for suggesting instead of buying a gas water buying an electric then there is nothing more I can say to you. Holy fuck.
The working class has made more than their share of sacrifices to fix a problem we didn’t create. You just keep asking for more sacrifices from us, when is it enough? How much more do you want us to sacrifice to protect the rich from sacrificing anything at all to fix their fucking mess? Everything? Is there a limit? Stop asking, telling or ‘sharing’ ways to coerce the poorest and least powerful of us to fix a problem we didn’t create and have zero control over. If we all went neutral, the wealthy would still just use all that space to pollute more. There is no solution without the wealthy making the sacrifices necessary, you’re just asking us to fucking suffer more to appease your need to do something about a problem outside your control.
Nope, not buying it. You already smashed the “class traitor” button, for me checks notes asking people to not give money to rich oil companies when they can by doing things like buying electric appliances. Any and all emotion or thoughts above that are what you assumed about me, this conversation is over.
Ironically if you hadn’t jumped down my throat I think we could have had a good conversation. Instead of creating allies, this just sewed more division. I’d analyze who really caused more class divide here.