Justice Neil Gorsuch, who was also appointed by Trump, added to the pressure Sauer faced, asking the seasoned Solicitor General: “Do you think Native Americans are birthright citizens under your test?”
“Ah, I think… so,” he replied, somewhat unconvincingly. “I’ll have to think that through.”
Is that literally the first time he’s thought about that?
It isn’t. All of the “quotes” the SG was using were Indian law cases about denying Natives citizenship. Gorsuch is an expert in Indian law. He was calling that out.
It could be. The point of bringing a case like this probably isn’t to win it, necessarily, but to demonstrate loyalty to dear leader. Dear Leader wants the case in order to push the Overton window. Its a can’t-lose situation for the regime; they get some benefit from either judicial decision.
The mission is to flood the zone in the hopes that some of their bullshit slips through. The more of it that fails, the better. I don’t think losing this ruling is a mortal blow for MAGA in any sense, but it will be better for Americans if this is one of the ones that fails.
Also just to normalize it in the American zeitgeist. Them entertaining it gives the illusion that there’s some merit to the argument. In a year or two when everyone believes there’s legitimate arguments on both sides of the issue due to it being an issue they keep hearing about in the news, they’ll ratchet it a few steps further toward their goal.
That’s was the point of the question. By birthright they are but under the MAGA interpretation (ie utter bullshit and making things up) they may not be because technically they have tribal affiliation and could be considered beholden to another government. It all makes much more sense when you try not to think about it logically. They are literally trying to argue the clause of the Constitution that says if you are born on USA territory you are US citizen doesn’t mean exactly that. It is the most unambiguous amendment because they knew the former confereracy would try this shit eventually.
I’m not really sure what Gorsuch was getting at with his question, but my understanding is that Native Americans are not citizens by the 14th amendment, because tribes are sovereign entities, and therefore fall into the “not subject to the jurisdiction” part of that amendment. However, they are granted citizenship by the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.
Except that they most certainly are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States - hell, they pay federal taxes. They aren’t subject to the jurisdiction of any particular state is all.
There are tribes that refer to themselves as nations, like the Cherokee Nation for example. I don’t really know if there’s a specific meaning to “nation” vs using some other word. I used “entity” in order to try to avoid using a more nuanced word incorrectly. The tribes have sovereignty is all I meant.
I see. I just wondered if there was a technical difference, because tribal sovereignty does seem to be more limited than what you would expect of a sovereign nation. We don’t treat them like separate countries. They’re not usually identified on maps of North America, for instance. And I get that most reservations are relatively small, but the Navajo Nation is about the size of Ireland, so plenty big enough to be identified on a map.
But I don’t mean to interrogate you, I’m just curious about this topic. I think I’ll do some research because I’d like to know more.
It’s complicated, they are citizens in most cases, but they also have distinctly different rights in some cases. It works out to them being a sort of hybrid citizen, as they are ultimately subject to most federal laws, but can’t be subjected to state laws. They are allowed to vote in elections though suppression is common. This status has resulted in them running casinos in most states, as the state can’t prevent them from doing it on tribal land, it’s also expanded to betting apps.
Is that literally the first time he’s thought about that?
It isn’t. All of the “quotes” the SG was using were Indian law cases about denying Natives citizenship. Gorsuch is an expert in Indian law. He was calling that out.
It could be. The point of bringing a case like this probably isn’t to win it, necessarily, but to demonstrate loyalty to dear leader. Dear Leader wants the case in order to push the Overton window. Its a can’t-lose situation for the regime; they get some benefit from either judicial decision.
The mission is to flood the zone in the hopes that some of their bullshit slips through. The more of it that fails, the better. I don’t think losing this ruling is a mortal blow for MAGA in any sense, but it will be better for Americans if this is one of the ones that fails.
Also just to normalize it in the American zeitgeist. Them entertaining it gives the illusion that there’s some merit to the argument. In a year or two when everyone believes there’s legitimate arguments on both sides of the issue due to it being an issue they keep hearing about in the news, they’ll ratchet it a few steps further toward their goal.
Deport those ungrateful native Americans back to…America???
The Trump admin doesn’t actually care where someone is from, they just get sent to a hole somewhere in El Salvador or South Sudan.
Think is too strong a term here.
Oh I’m sure he’s thought of it, but can’t say the truth out loud because it will make him look bad.
Can someone explain this to a clueless European? Are Native Americans not American Citizens by default?
That’s was the point of the question. By birthright they are but under the MAGA interpretation (ie utter bullshit and making things up) they may not be because technically they have tribal affiliation and could be considered beholden to another government. It all makes much more sense when you try not to think about it logically. They are literally trying to argue the clause of the Constitution that says if you are born on USA territory you are US citizen doesn’t mean exactly that. It is the most unambiguous amendment because they knew the former confereracy would try this shit eventually.
I’m not really sure what Gorsuch was getting at with his question, but my understanding is that Native Americans are not citizens by the 14th amendment, because tribes are sovereign entities, and therefore fall into the “not subject to the jurisdiction” part of that amendment. However, they are granted citizenship by the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924.
Except that they most certainly are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States - hell, they pay federal taxes. They aren’t subject to the jurisdiction of any particular state is all.
How is a sovereign entity different from a sovereign nation? If it is different.
There are tribes that refer to themselves as nations, like the Cherokee Nation for example. I don’t really know if there’s a specific meaning to “nation” vs using some other word. I used “entity” in order to try to avoid using a more nuanced word incorrectly. The tribes have sovereignty is all I meant.
I see. I just wondered if there was a technical difference, because tribal sovereignty does seem to be more limited than what you would expect of a sovereign nation. We don’t treat them like separate countries. They’re not usually identified on maps of North America, for instance. And I get that most reservations are relatively small, but the Navajo Nation is about the size of Ireland, so plenty big enough to be identified on a map.
But I don’t mean to interrogate you, I’m just curious about this topic. I think I’ll do some research because I’d like to know more.
It’s complicated, they are citizens in most cases, but they also have distinctly different rights in some cases. It works out to them being a sort of hybrid citizen, as they are ultimately subject to most federal laws, but can’t be subjected to state laws. They are allowed to vote in elections though suppression is common. This status has resulted in them running casinos in most states, as the state can’t prevent them from doing it on tribal land, it’s also expanded to betting apps.
They are citizens in all cases. But because of statute in the early 1900s, technically not birthright citizens by the case law.