• Photonic@lemmy.world
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    3 days ago

    First, I help you see why Von der Leyen’s quote is nonsense (the third package was indeed in fact, not draining the economy, since 17 more were needed after that). And the obviously ultimate goal of the sanctions, aka ending the war is still not in sight…

    or do you really think just making things a little more shitty for ordinary Russians while the war continues to take Ukrainian lives is the goal? (Really, answer this question, I have answered yours).

    you’ve been called out on your bullshit

    I said I have seen things like this said before, and I show you literally multiple times when these things have been said before. Whether that’s an official report or a news article is irrelevant. They have been said before in a public place.

    And the point is: I don’t believe them. I don’t believe the clickbait titles. That’s the entire fucking point, you dumbass. I literally said I’ll believe it when I see it. And in your head you have made that into that I somehow believe the clickbait? You’re even dumber than I thought.

    please do link the Kiel institute articles from the past

    And I never said it was the Kiel Institute who said such things in the past. I was obviously talking about this one. How’s that flying pink elephant doing up there?

    • Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca
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      3 days ago

      Ok, let’s start from the very very beginning.

      Our sanctions and the self-sanctioning by companies themselves are draining Russia’s economy and thus draining the Kremlin’s war machine.

      “are draining” is in the present progressive. It denotes an action in progress, not a completed action. Meaning the sanctions were in the process of draining the economy. Von der Leyen’s claim was not that the draining had completed but that it was in progress.

      next is your complete lack of understanding of how sanctions work.

      the third package was indeed in fact, not draining the economy, since 17 more were needed after that

      The very first sanctions package was immediately called “first sanctions package” at the time

      https://www.noerr.com/en/insights/eu-imposes-a-first-package-of-new-sanctions-against-russia-in-the-ukrainian-crisis

      The understanding, from the very first sanctions package, was that this would be a continuous process, with sanctions package after sanctions package, not a one and done deal that then needs to haphazardly be amended as you seem to think.

      Sanctions need to be amended as the economic reality shifts and loopholes need to be plugged as the target of sanctions finds ways to evade them.

      The 17 packages after the third were always going to happen because that is fundamentally how sanctions work.

      And let’s look at numbers. European sanctions have reduced Russian fossil fuel export revenues by about $300-500 million per day. Not sure how you would describe this, other than “draining the economy”. And this does not include any other sanctions affecting other parts of the economy.

      In your favourite metric, ballistic missiles, that is worth about 750-1000 Iskanders per day given the $400-500k unit production cost. Now of course money isn’t the biggest limiting factor in Russia’s ability to manufacture those, it’s largely parts availability that leads to big fluctuations in production quantities. Parts availabilities, which, surprise, are limited due to sanctions.

      or do you really think just making things a little more shitty for ordinary Russians

      Strawman. “draining the economy” is not about making things a little more shitty for ordinary Russians. It’s about reducing Russia’s ability to finance the war, which takes time considering Russia had a $600 billion war chest, half of which is frozen in mostly European banks, thanks to the sanctions, and the other half is now, thanks to the sanctions, that were draining the economy, mostly drained. And it is about reducing Russia’s ability to source industrial machines and components to reduce their ability to manufacture weapons, like your favourite one, the ballistic missile. Where production quantities, as mentioned above, are fluctuating due to sanctions.

      As I have stated before, it was constantly repeated all the way back in 2022 that sanctions would not defeat Russia on their own, and certainly not immediately, and would take years. The point was, from the very beginning, to make it increasingly difficult for Russia to finance the war and to produce weapons, so Ukraine could gain the upper hand, which is now manifesting on the battlefield, after years, as predicted.

      People like you were told in at the very start in 2022 that the real world doesn’t work like TikTok instant gratification, and here you are more than 4 years later still not having gotten the point.

      • Photonic@lemmy.world
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        2 days ago

        an action in progress

        Indeed present progressive.

        As in the sanctions that we have applied in the present are working to progressively drain the economy.

        If the three sanctions packages were already draining the economy why oh why did she need 17 more? She didn’t say will be draining after we implement 17 more. If you say “are draining” you’re talking about what you have already done to set a process in motion and not what you’re planning to do. How hard is it? You really keep swinging and missing.

        And if you had actually read this article from 2024, which we talked about extensively, you would have known that the Russian economy was in fact not being drained at all.

        It also has nothing to do with the fact that I don’t understand how sanctions work. Everyone knows that loopholes have to be closed. I don’t need a mansplainy “explanation” of something that is completely obvious.

        European sanctions have reduced Russian fossil fuel export revenues by about $300-500 million per day

        For the umpteenth time, that was not the three sanctions packages. Learn the meaning of the word “are”.

        Strawman. “draining the economy” is not about making things a little more shitty for ordinary Russians.

        Maybe quote the entire sentence if you’re gonna cry strawman. Now you’ve created one of your own.

        It’s about reducing Russia’s ability to finance the war

        Just let the war keep festering then for longer? You still can’t answer the question because you know you’re wrong.

        People like you were told in at the very start in 2022 that the real world doesn’t work like TikTok instant gratification, and here you are more than 4 years later still not having gotten the point.

        Dumbass still doesn’t understand what “I’ll believe it when I see it” means… Maybe look up a phrase before you start commenting if you don’t understand it? What I’m saying is the opposite of instant gratification, you dunce. And I’ve never been on TikTok.

        • Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca
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          2 days ago

          If the three sanctions packages were already draining the economy why oh why did she need 17 more? She didn’t say will be draining after we implement 17 more. If

          1 hole in a bucket drains the bucket 3 drain it faster, so why do you need 17 more? because holes can be plugged and 20 drain it faster than 3. Are you really this fucking stupid?

          • Photonic@lemmy.world
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            2 days ago

            Are you really this fucking stupid?

            Questions are forbidden, as I’ve heard. But to answer your question, I’m very positive I’m far more intelligent than you.

            So how do you explain this: https://www.russiamatters.org/node/35164 ?

            And you don’t need to ask me whether I’m stupid if you really think the first three packages were sufficient to drain the Russian economy, you naive fool.

            • Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca
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              2 days ago

              So how do you explain this: https://www.russiamatters.org/node/35164 ?

              Then where did their $300 billion war chest drain to dumbass? Already addressed in previous comments. But you’re too illiterate to read.

              if you really think the first three packages were sufficient to drain the Russian economy,

              You just don’t fucking know what “drain” means.

              You assume drain must mean drain completely to 0 so Russia completely starves.

              The first package was already draining, the next were draining more. Already explained to you by others at the very beginning of the thread, and by me multiple times. That’s how sanctions work.

              I’m very positive I’m far more intelligent than you.

              You certainly think so, yes, that is very obvious. That is your biggest problem really.

              • Photonic@lemmy.world
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                2 days ago

                Okay, I didn’t want to ask anymore questions because I’m trying to to be nice.

                But…

                Do you know what an economy is?

                And

                Do you know what GDP is?

                And

                Do you know that if the percentage of GDP is above 0% it generally means that an economy is growing?

                And

                Do you know that draining and growing are opposites?

                You certainly think so, yes, that is very obvious. That is your biggest problem really.

                Some things you don’t think, some you just know.

                • Vergissmeinnicht@lemmy.ca
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                  2 days ago

                  Do you know that if the percentage of GDP is above 0% it generally means that an economy is growing?

                  Ok buddy, you have got the spirit, but you really need to tackle topics in your wheelhouse.

                  The percentage of GDP being above 0% is meaningless. >0% of what?

                  If the GDP growth rate is >0 then the economy is growing. That would be the amount of additional GDP in relation to existing GDP over a given timeframe or (ΔGDP/GDP)/Δt, usually over one year (Δt = 1 annum) or annualized for ease of comparison. Usually expressed as (ΔGDP/GDP)*100% where the Δt is implied.

                  here is a more in depth explatation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_growth

                  Once you’ve digested that, look at Stimulus and Quantitative Easing

                  That will explain where the $300 billion of the NWF that weren’t frozen disappeared to. And why the Russian banks now experience such a dire liquidity crisis.

                  And once you understand all of that you can put 2 and 2 together, and understand WHY the Russian economy had such low growth rates despite such a gargantuan stimulus effort.

                  There is a massive hole in the economy, through which an enormous amount of money has been draining, which is the aforementioned sanctions. And Russia had to pump almost the entirety of their remaining NWF into the economy and also do an enormous amount of QE to keep the economy at a slightly elevated growth rate. Although since late last year that’s no longer working and the economy has been in a recession.

                  And we’ve come full circle. (Or rather we will have come full circle once you’ve done your required reading to understand the subject matter)

                  • Photonic@lemmy.world
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                    1 day ago

                    LOL a lot of words to tell me that I am right.

                    Nice copy pasting from ChatGPT too.

                    You still can’t admit it huh? Stupidity and pride are a hell of a combination.

                    Early in the war, the broad consensus was that the new sanctions would devastate the Russian economy. By some metrics, though, Russia’s economy has proved resilient to date.

                    From the US government

                    Following Russia’s full-fledged invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, Western countries imposed unprecedented economic sanctions. Yet there is limited evidence that these measures have inflicted substantial economic pain on Russia, as the recent slowdown has largely reflected factors unrelated to sanctions.

                    From the ESCP geopolitics institute

                    And you still claim I don’t understand the topic…

                    low growth

                    So it was growth. Thank you. You could have been a lot shorter with that.

                    And we’ve come full circle. (Or rather we will have come full circle once you’ve done your required reading to understand the subject matter)

                    Full circle indeed. We’ve once again arrived at the point where it is completely obvious to anyone that I’m completely right, but you’re too obtuse to admit it. This entire discussion could have been avoided if you would just have reacted like a normal person who gets shown they’re wrong about something.

                    If I you claim I don’t understand it, and I’m schooling you, where does that leave you?